Alexander Downer speaks to Kibris media group
Alexander Downer spoke to Reşat Akar of the Kibris media group on 3 March. Below is the transcript of the interview, which was reported on today in Kibris newspaper:
Question: [Interpreter] A basic introduction was given by the journalist, who said this was the second time Alexander Downer was being interviewed on their programme. He would like to congratulate you because there are a lot of conflicts between the two sides but you still keep patient and you look very cool. What makes you actually to be cool about this situation?
Downer: Well, I think it’s obviously a difficult negotiation. But I said when I first came here that I was cautiously optimistic, and I think good progress has been made in these negotiations in spite of the inevitable difficulties. It is important that the two leaders continue to consolidate the gains that they have made. I have also been very encouraged by the statement made by the Turkish Prime Minister, Mr. Erdogan to journalists over the weekend, demonstrating Turkey’s continuing and strong support for a negotiated settlement according to the UN – the bizonal, bicommunal federation with political equality and a single international personality. It is encouraging to know that all parties are now strongly supporting a successful outcome to these talks.
Question: Mr. Downer, there have been more than sixty times that they have come together and at first when they started they were expecting results in a short period – a solution actually, but there is not any agreement any single subject. What can you say about that?
Downer: Well, it’s important to understand the formula here: nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. And at this stage not everything has been agreed, of course. But there has been real progress made and there is no doubt in my mind that a solution is within the grasp of the leaders. It is possible to do this deal. There have been significant convergences across much of the agenda. There are still some areas which need to be negotiated and where there are divergences, of course, that is well known. But I think they have gone a long way towards working out how a federal Cyprus would work into the long-term future. This is our objective analysis of what has been happening. The United Nations, we don’t have a horse in the race. We don’t support one side or the other side. We don’t support political parties within the two sides of Cyprus. We just call it as we see it and that is how we see it.
Question: Lots of Greek Cypriot leaders, including Mr. Christofias and the leader of AKEL Mr. Andros Kyprianou are saying that there are differences on territorial and security issues. There are lots of differences there is no agreement on the main subjects. What can you say about that?
Downer: Well not everything has been agreed, that’s true. But I think you have to look at this in an overall perspective. I think there is a great deal of convergence across many of the chapters. I mean finally some arrangement will have to be made on territorial adjustment no doubt and there will be a resolution of this question on the Treaty of Guarantee. The three guarantor powers have not so far met to talk about this. Resolutions have been passed in parliament and so on of course. But we will see. Difficult as some of these issues are, it’s my view that the leaders need to work at solving them and not run away from them, and not be deflected by internal debate but stick with the work that they are doing to try to achieve a successful solution. As I have said I think a solution is within their grasp. I think it’s a doable deal – I think it’s possible and we at the United Nations would very much urge them to keep working at it until they do agree.
Question: You have a very important role and you work very hard to encourage both sides and when you hear about the decision of the Greek Cypriot parliament what do you feel?
Downer: Well, for me after eighteen months of working on the Cyprus issue with the politics of both sides – of the north and the south- and there are political events that occur from time to time, of one kind or another, for all sorts of motives and I was a politician myself so I understand these things. But my point is you need to concentrate on the central issue here which is concluding a successful negotiation and not be deflected too much by extraneous issues that may occur. Sure the Greek Cypriot parliament has passed a resolution on the Treaty of Guarantee, the Turkish Cypriot “parliament” has passed another resolution, look the leaders need to negotiate this issue and the guarantor powers need to negotiate this issue and they ultimately need to work out what they can do with it and what they are satisfied with. We don’t, of course, in the UN prejudge this as an issue. We don’t have an opinion about it that we bring to the table. We are very familiar with the opinions the two sides have. They need to work these questions out themselves and there will be an appropriate time to do that.
Question: Do you think the Greek Cypriots put a condition for themselves to involve any solution, there is no guarantee? Do they want that? Do they put that condition [forward] with this resolution in their parliament?
Downer: Well the resolution of the parliament is not a binding resolution, it is an advisory resolution, it’s an expression of an opinion. Ultimately their negotiations and Mr. Christofias will make a decision on how they are going to handle this issue. But on this question of guarantees, of course not just a question for Cypriots – there are three guarantor powers, Turkey, Britain and Greece – also have their own views on this and they are signatories to the treaty. These people are all going to be players. I wouldn’t overstate the resolutions that have been in the parliaments; they are all part of the political process. But this is an issue that ultimately will have to be considered by the leaders in Cyprus and it will have to be considered by the three guarantor powers; that is how it will ultimately have to be handled.
Question: There is an opinion about a conference with five sides but you made actually an effort to do a three groups conference, the two mainlands and the United Kingdom and you made some talks with the Greeks and Turks in Ankara and Athens. Can you share your opinions and what did you talk about with the Turkish and Greek representatives about the guarantee issue?
Downer: This is all a question of timing really, nothing much else. The guarantor powers obviously know — the three guarantor powers as well as the Cypriot leaders know — that at some point they need to all address this issue, either separately or together, but it needs to be addressed. It’s been touched on by the leaders during the course of last year. This is an issue that at the right time they will talk about. But at the moment the leaders are talking about governance and power sharing. I think they have made very good progress in that area. They are talking about the economy and the EU. These are really technical issues. They will then start to touch on the question of property, which I think is a more challenging issue. Eventually they will get to this issue of security, but in particular the treaty of guarantee and the two sides within Cyprus as well as the three guarantor powers, they all need to think about ultimately how the treaty of guarantee issue is going to be dealt with. But it is not going to happen this week.
Question: This week you said?
Downer: I mean in the immediate future because in the immediate future they are focusing on the economy and EU, they are not focusing on security.
Question: Greek Cypriot press made comments about Ankara is closer than Athens to talk about the guarantee issue. Ankara is more optimistic than Athens. Athens is not ready to talk.
Downer: I think this is just a timing issue. I was in Athens last Thursday. I think the Greek government is happy to talk about this issue; they know they have to talk about this issue, too. But they are happy to talk about this issue and they are happy to talk about this issue with the UK and with Turkey. But it’s just a question of getting the timing right so it will happen in time. The only question is when and the answer to that has some bearing on what is happening here on the ground in Cyprus and where the leaders in Cyprus are up to in their negotiations. At the moment they are talking about the economy and the EU, so they are not talking about this question. When this question becomes a full-on issue in the negotiations here, that will also be a time that no doubt all of those three guarantor powers will want to be talking much more intensely about this issue.
Question: Mr. Erdogan, the Prime Minister of Turkey actually you said made optimistic, positive comments. Is there any same kind of comments which affect positively from the Greek government?
Downer: Well I was in Athens last week and I met with the alternate Foreign Minister, Mr. Droutsas and I was very encouraged by his support for the process. I think Mr. Papandreou both before he was Prime Minister as opposition leader and while he has been the Prime Minister — for all the other issues he has to deal with, of course — but he has a very positive view of the Cyprus question. He wants to see these negotiations succeed. You have a situation now where you have Mr. Christofias and Mr. Talat, of course, who are conducting the negotiations under my auspices, under the auspices of the United Nations. You have the Greek government and the Turkish government both enthusiastically pushing for the leaders to negotiate a bizonal, bicommunal federation with political equality and a single international personality. They are all on the same page here. Of course, there is not a long history of trust between all of these parties as is well understood and well known but for all of that we look at it objectively in the United Nations and I have to tell you what is encouraging is that you’ve got the Papandreou government in Athens and the Erdogan government in Ankara both very much pushing for the same sort of solution to the Cyprus problem and by that I mean a bizonal, bicommunal federation and you’ve got the leaders here doing the negotiations under UN auspices. So everybody is moving in the same direction and nobody should have any illusions about it being technically difficult to negotiate. Of course it is. If it were easy to solve, this problem would have been solved long ago, but it hasn’t been solved for 36 years. So you know it’s difficult. But everybody is focused on getting the right outcome here and that’s very encouraging. I think some of the statements Prime Minister Papandreou has made and the statements that Prime Minister Erdogan made over the weekend, all of these for us here at the United Nations are very encouraging developments.
Question: [inaudible] …The United Nations has been here since 1964. Can you give us any time line, or can you tell us how many more meetings, how many more years will it take to find a solution. Do you have any idea?
Downer: I think the leaders, thinking about the things they have already negotiated, have already made very good progress. That is not playing down what has been achieved. We have a new process, which began in September 2008’ you can go back to May, I suppose, 2008. They are working through methodically, piece by piece, all of these issues that have to be worked through to achieve a solution to the Cyprus problem. I think they have made good progress. And we don’t have any motive for saying they either have or they haven’t. We just call it as we see it. Speaking objectively, I think they have made good progress. We hope that the momentum that is there can continue until they reach a conclusion. Now, they don’t have to reach a conclusion by the 1st of June or the 30th of September, or any particular date. But obviously if the talks just bolt down and nothing is ever achieved. There is no movement towards convergence. If that were to happen in the future then they would run out of steam. But these talks have had plenty of steam; there have been good convergences on a whole range of different areas; but there is still quite some way to go. There are also events that the leaders have to deal with. Mr Talat faces an election, Mr Christofias has had some negotiations with his coalition partner, and of the other coalitions partners walked out of the coalition. So he has had to deal with that. There is nothing we can do about any of these things in the United Nations, but they obviously have an effect on the speed in which the whole process moves.�
Question: Do you have any deadline, actually, any retirement plans? How long do you think these negotiations will continue, and how long are you going to be here?
Downer: As you know, I come and go. I was employed on a part time basis. To tell you the truth, I have been here most of the time through December, January and February, and I will be here for a very big portion of March. Of course, in April there will be the elections in the north and there’s not much point in the UN being around for that, I won’t be here then. So, presumably once the elections are out of the way, the negotiations will resume in May some time. So, we will just have to wait and see. I think the Secretary-General and I both feel the process is making progress and we need to stick at it. The last thing anybody needs is a quitter. Winners aren’t quitters, and quitters never win.�
Question: …no specific time? You don’t want to share it with us?�
Downer: Well, I don’t have any specific time. I have six-monthly contracts with the UN; if you are interested in the details. But there is no particular significance in that. UNFICYP has six-monthly contracts as well, and they have been going on since 1964 — not that I will spend 30 years on this! But, obviously, we are at a crucial stage this year. There will be some interruptions before the elections in the north, but other than that, we are at a crucial stage this year, and the last thing we want to do in the UN is disrupt the process. We are here to help the process. It’s complicated and it’s difficult. Us walking out at some particular point is not being considered, is unconscionable; we wouldn’t do that.�
Question: You said you have much interest in the elections in the north…�
Downer: I didn’t say I had much interest in them …�
Question: Ok, but …
Downer: They will happen. They’re happening.
Question: Over the last couple of days, the Turkish Government…the Government Spokesman, and also the Foreign Ministry of Turkey, made two statements about the elections for the “TRNC”. Whoever wins will continue in the negotiations, this is what Turkey wants. Does this make you more optimistic? Do you feel relaxed about that? What is your comment?
Downer: Naturally enough, we wouldn’t want to become involved in any way at all in the elections or to say anything that could be misinterpreted in the context of the elections. To understand where we come from – we want to see the two leaders successfully conclude these negotiations. They’ve made good progress over the last 18 months. It’s a complicated process, it’s difficult. The negotiations are conducted in English, not in their native languages. So, none of this is easy. But, they’ve made good progress. There is an election, whatever happens in the election that will be, but our objective is to see a successful outcome to these negotiations. I thought the most important thing that came out of Ankara in the last few days wasn’t any commentary about the elections by the Turkish Government, that’s fine, I don’t offer any opinion about what they comment about the election. The most important single thing that has come out of Ankara in relation to Cyprus, in a long time, was the statement by Prime Minister Erdogan. The Prime Minister has made it very clear how strongly he is committed to these negotiations succeeding according to the UN framework of a bizonal, bicommunal federation, with political equality and a single international personality. For us in the United Nations, whatever other people may say, we find these comments by Prime Minister Erdogan enormously encouraging. He is encouraging the negotiations as they are currently taking place and he is anxious that these negotiations should succeed. This is not to be downplayed. This is a very, very important development. The fact that the Prime Minister would sit down not just with Turkish Cypriot journalists, as he no doubt often does, but also with Greek Cypriot journalists, is symbolically very important. I think this has been much appreciated throughout the island and it is much appreciated by the United Nations.�
Question: When it takes too long to find a solution, actually it is taking too long, both sides, over the years are moving away from [inaudible] especially the Turkish Cypriots. The Turkish Cypriots are [inaudible] to Annan Plan at the moment is reducing its [inaudible] everyday. Does it affect you negatively, does it upset you?
Downer: I think the ultimate test is going to be if the two leaders are able to negotiate successfully an agreement. The ultimate test is going to be whether the public on both sides will support that agreement, not what they think about previous attempts to solve the Cyprus problem. Think about it from the point of view from the average voter in the north or the south – negotiations have been going on for a long time, for 36 years, if you take 1974 as your starting point. You can go back to the 1960s, or even, for that matter, to the 1950s. There have been negotiations going on for a long time. In recent years they have not been successful, these negotiations. Ultimately, they have not been successful. In terms of listening to commentary about the negotiations, I suppose the public is becoming skeptical. You can understand that even if there is skepticism it isn’t justified. They need to understand that progress is being made, step-by-step progress in being made in these negotiations. There is an agreement within the grasp of the leaders. It is possible to do this deal. If that happens, then the public, in the north and the south, will be asked for their opinion about that deal. You can’t ask them that until the deal is done. So when that day arrives is the day that you will need to consider the public opinion. �
Question: What do you think about the comments about you from the Greek Cypriot press, why do they criticize you a lot, and what are the reasons to criticize you?
Downer: Well, I don’t know; you’d have to ask them. I don’t really mind what they say. It’s not about me; I’m not a Cypriot, I’m an Australian. I work in a very objective way for the United Nations. We simply call it as it is. If somebody in the media doesn’t like our analysis, it’s a free world; they are welcome to criticize us for it. To be honest with you, I don’t very much mind what they say. I am told over the years that many of the leaders of the UN here in Cyprus have had a very interesting relationship with the media. For me, I just love them all. I love them all. They are all wonderful people doing a worthy job. Whether they criticize me or not doesn’t worry me.�
Question: Before the elections in the north you can’t see any solution; but you have to know we all want a solution; especially the Turkish Cypriots want a solution. But just forget the negotiations and your duty, what has affected you mostly, social, economic or cultural sides of Cyprus, what is the most important issue for you?
Downer: I think given the history of Cyprus, it is not surprising that there is a relatively low level of trust between the two sides. I actually think Greek Cypriots really do want a solution, although they don’t all want the same solution, of course. But I think the majority of them clearly want to see Mr Christofias succeed in these negotiations. They understand there needs to be a compromise. I think the large majority of Turkish Cypriots hold the same view; they want Mr Talat to succeed, they know that to succeed there have to be compromises. But I do find that Cypriots want to see their island reunited, albeit as a federal entity, with two constituent states or federated units, rather than as a unitary state as it was in the 1960 Constitution. Having said that, the level of trust is low, neither side is really sure that the other side is committed to this outcome. And that is entirely understandable given the history – the violence, the tragedy of, really, the second half of the twentieth century in Cyprus. I think they should be, as time goes on, prepared to be more trusting of each other. The more the communities have to do with each other the more they will realize they have common problems, common issues, they have a common island. Where they have differences, they need to work on a process of reconciliation. I think that’s much more of a difficulty than outsiders often realize. It’s pretty clear what sort of a solution there is to the Cyprus problem, that both sides can live with. It’s pretty clear in the end that both sides can live with a bizonal, bicommunal federation with political equality with a single international personality. Not everybody on both sides agree to that, I appreciate. But I think the bulk of people can live with that. And it is not beyond the wit of the leaders to negotiate the details of that. And that’s what is happening at the moment. I appreciate that there are, for historic reasons, lows levels of trust between the two sides. I don’t mean between the leaders, but amongst the ordinary people. Time will help to heal those wounds; and particularly if there is an agreement that will do an enormous amount to heal those wounds.�
Question: [Inaudible]…wish you good luck and we hope you have a chance to see the result…
Downer: Well, it will a result for the people of Cyprus, they’re the important people; definitely not me or the United Nations. We are just helping with the process. We are not Cypriots. The people who matter here are the Cypriots, whether they are Turkish Cypriots or Greek Cypriots. I hope and pray that the leaders can continue with wisdom and determination to achieve the right outcome. It requires a lot of courage, and it requires a bit of patience as well, but, so far so good.
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